Well I spoke too soon about Luke's day-time schedule. Yesterday he didn't nap at all, except in the car on the way home from the doctor's office. Definitely over-tired.
His lungs sounded fine yesterday at his appointment, but the doctor thought his breathing wasn't moving as freely as it should so she wants me to give him a breathing treatment before bed. She also had me give him one while we were in the office and listened to him after but it didn't really help at all. So who knows if it will help here at home.
We're also going to try me giving up eggs. Just as a test. I eat them nearly every morning so it's definitely something that's a regular part of my diet that could be affecting him.
Yesterday was tough. I was exhausted, he wasn't sleeping and Clara had a bizillion medications and treatments she needed. I kept reminding myself of two things. One, that it could be a lot harder (the number of treatments and medications my babies are getting pale in comparison to children with serious medical problems, and many of those aren't temporary like these are). And two, that it won't be like this forever. Plus, I get to offer it up for my prayer buddy.
And the good news is Clara is improving. Thank God! Her nose was not runny yesterday for the first time in over two weeks. And after I got home from Luke's appointment, I walked in and looked at her and couldn't believe she looked like her old self again! Her eyes were back to normal and weren't swollen with dark circles. What a great sight to see.
Thank you all for your advice and consolation. I do think that maybe he's not napping enough during the day, but the problem is he just won't. So my question for all of you who suggested more naps... do your kids just fall asleep when you put them down? Because Luke won't.
And perhaps I exaggerated his penchant for daytime naps. You know how when things are good for a couple days you think they've always been like that, and vice versa? Well, he had napped great (went down awake and slept for one to two hours) for a few days before my last post, and I guess it seemed like he'd always been doing it. But yesterday and today's lack of napping reminded me that it definitely doesn't always happen like that.
So... what do I do? Generally speaking, I'm not opposed to letting a baby cry a little to get them to sleep, but the problem is it doesn't work for him. He would never stop.
And as for co-sleeping, well, I probably am in denial which is why I didn't say anything the other day, but I do nurse him in bed at least once a night and he does fall asleep there. As do I. But as soon as I wake up (totally sore) and move my arm out from under him, he wakes up and cries. And I just haven't been able to find a way to nurse him lying down that's entirely comfortable.
So that's not a long-term solution for us. It's kind of more of a band-aid. My goal is to get him in his crib in his nursery.
Anyways, is there anyone out there whose baby just doesn't fall asleep? Or are we the only family who just won't go down? (I know, I highly doubt it!)
As for his night last night, he did (thank God!) fall asleep last night around ten (I think he fell asleep nursing and stayed asleep when I put him down) and slept till one. He then nursed and slept in bed with me until 4 a.m. Then there was a lot of rocking by his father, to no avail, followed by me nursing again around 6, and then him sleeping in his vibrating chair from 7 till 10. So not terrible but also not ideal.
So your advice is still welcome and much appreciated! In particular, what to do about babies who just do not fall asleep. I'm just at a loss. Totally dumbfounded. His doctor didn't even know what to do. I need all the help I can get!
Friday, March 18, 2011
More advice please!
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Now that you've explained more, I hate to say this but that was totally Maggs... I'd encourage biting the bullet and doing a full elimination diet. If that works then you can slowly add things back in and see what the culprits are. I am curious though, how's his poop? Is it greenish or mucousy? That was my #1 guide with Maggs... the sleep just ended up to be a bonus for us. Praying you get it figured out soon.
ReplyDeleteI have two sons. My oldest is 19 years old and the youngest is 8 years old. My oldest was exactly like Luke and I was so much like you. He refused to go to sleep on his own and my limit for crying was around 15 minutes. He slept in our room until he was 7 or older in a toddler bed. Nightmare! Youngest was always put into bed awake and allowed to fall asleep on his own. He is a great sleeper. The crying somehow doesn't affect me like it used to. I don't want to sound insensitive but I have learned that in the long run it is best for everyone to let them cry it out. We did that with the oldest and after a week of crying he slept well but I fell back into my bad habits of running every time he made a peep and we were right back where we started. I think you have to let them cry. I don't know if this helps but there is a world of difference in my boys and the youngest even went through times he cried too but I hung tough and it didn't last long.
ReplyDeleteLA - His poops have always been a bit suspect. I would say they're normal more often than not but they're not normal 100% of the time. Sometimes they're really, really mucusy (I'd call it stringy) and for a few days they were even sandy. It's generally yellowish-brown, but once in a while they'll turn a little green. Thankfully he hasn't had blood in his stool since I gave up dairy.
ReplyDeleteOkay.. Now that I've gone into such detail about his poop, suffice it to say that I think you might be onto something. I'm going to have to google total elimination diet. His dr mentioned possibly doing an allergy blood test. Do those work?
Another thought... Maggs had reflux before we figured out all her allergies. It totally went away and she stopped spitting up all together as soon as we figured out all that she was allergic to and got both of us off of them. If I remember right, Luke has some reflux too, right? Is the head of his crib elevated? For a long time Maggs would only sleep for any amount of time off of us in her car seat where she was propped up. Then she started sleeping in a cradle where she was at a significant angle. Of course she was younger then so a cradle was still appropriate.
ReplyDeleteWell, I have to say that Bella was a horrible sleeper for the first 3 months and then a bad sleeper until she was over 4 months. She NEVER slept more than 1.5 hours at a time for the first 12 weeks of her life! I finally read "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child" at that time and the info helped so much! Then, from 12-16 weeks she started napping better (in her swing) and sleeping for 2-4 hours at a time during the day, with only have an hour to an hour and a half of awake time between naps (yes, that is a LOT of naps). She started sleeping 3 hours at a time at night, feeding and going right back to sleep. Then at 16 weeks, it went down hill. She was waking up every 10-30 minutes and needing us to go give her back her pacifier. She was always swaddled and had a paci and white noise machine, but was waking up every time the paci fell out. We never had to pick her up, just put the paci back in. After a few weeks of this, I couldn't take it any more. We decided on an earlier bedtime (7pm) and we would put her in her bed swaddled with her paci and then not go back in there until 11pm and then not again until 3am and then not until 7am. So, she could have up to 3 feedings a night/every 4 hours. The first night she cried for 25 minutes (and I cried the WHOLE time too). The second night she cried for 15 minutes and the 3rd night for 5 minutes. She cried a few times in the middle of the night (not feeding times) for the first few nights and then by the 4th night, she was actually only getting up ONCE (at 1am) to feed and then again at 7am. She kept this feeding until almost 7 months. Now, she has been sleeping 12 hours 6:30pm-6:30am, since 7 months old...she is 9 1/2 months now.
ReplyDeleteBasically, I would recommend putting Luke in his bed swaddled with a white noise machine on for naps after 1-1.5 hours of awake time during the day and also putting him in bed for the night at 7pm and only going in there every 4 hours to feed him. It WILL take a few nights for him to figure it all out, and his body will have to "catch up" on lost sleep before he really starts to sleep well. The day time naps are so important to the night time sleep and vise versa!
Praying for you!
The allergy blood tests are a good starting place for an older child or an adult but IMHO take too much blood for and infant and you still have to confirm with eliminating those things for a while and then try adding back in to confirm. They can also miss important things so that's why they are just a place to start.
ReplyDeleteElimination diets can be hard on mamas (especially mamas like me who love food) but way kinder on babies.
Honestly if you eggs everyday and his poop is only really mucousy sometimes then I'd guess that the main problem is something else but he may need you off eggs too. Soy is a huge one as well as wheat. I have a friend that was off all Dairy, Egg, Wheat, Soy, Nuts and a few other things until her daughter turned 1 and then she started adding things back in. She's almost back to a normal diet but her daughter still can't handle any dairy or soy in her diet even as minor ingredients. Thankfully even though I can't have any obvious soy, Maggs can handle me having a little earth balance in my diet or I'd go insane! She's worth it though.
Until you get him not being overtired, I'd do whatever it takes to get him to go to sleep.
ReplyDeleteMy kids always responded well to the swaddle/nurse/bounce routine, then place ever so gently in a swing or bouncy seat.
I've also swaddled, nursed, then bounced to sleep in the bouncer.
Once he's sleeping, you can worry about him falling asleep on his own. He'll cry a lot less when he's learning to sleep on his own if he's not overtired.
And white noise. Use it with gusto. With my son, we used the vacuum.
is his breathing treatment albuterol? some kids won't sleep with that med. I have one kid that will and 1 kids that stays up.
ReplyDeleteMy baby did not sleep until she was over 1 years old in the day for a nap. Car rides do put them to sleep but transfering them out of the car and back into their cribs often wakes them up and you have two little ones so this is probably too hard. I found that tiring the out physically sometimes helped. A bath where I would have her splash in it, really move her legs around, could help. And, finally we found that she needed a pacifer is she was EVER to sleep during the day, ever. Also, she woke up to the slightest noise, UGH, not once would my baby EVER sleep outside EVER EVER EVER because she would have to pay attention. I found that limiting the night sleep to only 8 hours helped. She slept 9 PM to 5 AM THEN I WOULD BE ABLE To get a day time nap. It eventually become so important for me to have a daytime nap I insisted on her waking up at 5 AM. It was the only way to get a break during the day. And, since I was never really rested at night what was the big deal to lose 2 hours of nighttime sleep?
ReplyDeleteI agree with LA I think it's something you are eating, when the many Bfeeding mamas around me have a fussy baby they look at diet, I think the ones she listed are a good start. It's not easy but I think it would be worth it to have a happy sleeping baby getting the best food you can offer!! Praying for you guys! I wish i lived closer, I'd babysit so you could nap!
ReplyDeleteSo in summary have them wake up in the morning still tired!
ReplyDeleteLeo is not a really good napper either. He is doing better in his swing, but the other two kids are so loud I feel like he's always waking up. He also does great in the car or if I'm wearing him. I've tried several times to get him to sleep in his crib but it hasn't worked and I don't have time and I can't leave the others unattended when I'm trying to get him down in his crib. At least the last two nights he only woke up once! For two weeks before that he was getting up every 2-3 hours and eating 4-5 oz each time. killing me. Well none of this is good advice but I am with you! Somehow it doesn't bother me as much with the third kid though. M and JP started out the same way and now they are fantastic sleepers. JP was especially hard to get in his crib - he was probably 6 months before he slept in it at all. M slept in our bed part of the night until she was about 8 months then she would only sleep in her crib. Leo sleeps with us all night right now. (That is called natural child spacing! haha!) And I can't have ANY dairy with him either. I say they will all sleep eventually ;)
ReplyDeleteI can't offer any wise advice, just that you're definitely not alone! One of my sister's was a pro at getting her kids to sleep... until #3 blew all her prior knowledge about sleep out of the water! I hope you find that solution soon and get some blessed sleep!
ReplyDeleteI am glad that Clara looked better today! More thoughts on napping-I try to make the crib a place my kids like. I do that by turning on the mobile once they wake up, and when they wake up happy and aren't starving, I leave them to play in their bed. My kids love to play on their back on a blanket, so I don't think they see the bed as that different. Because they like their beds, if they aren't tired, they will still go to bed and play there until they are. As a result, I error on the side of putting them down early instead of late. I just go in and do the routine either when I see the very first sleepy sign (yawn, stare off in space, or eye rub) OR I go by the clock (if it has been an hour and a half since he got up and I haven't sene a sleepy sign, I still often put him down). Also, if I know that the night involved a lot of waking or whatever, then I def error on the earlier side. We use a pacifier, so if he goes down with it and plays awhile, he usually loses it and I have to replace it. He usually doesn't care it fell out until he is actually ready to sleep in the bed. The sched that works great for us is: up at 7:20, eat 8:30 (because he already ate at 5:30am), first nap 9-10 or 10:30 (if he naps shorter I give him the paci and he usually will go back down for more), eat 11:30, nap about 12 for longest nap (usually 1 1/2 to 2 hrs-I might put the paci in a couple times at one wakeful point and then he gets over the hump and sleeps a long time), eat at 2:30pm, nap at 3 for an hr or 1.5hrs, eat at 5:30pm, bed about 6:30pm or sometimes catnap at 6:30pm, eat again at 7:30pm and bed about 8pm. He has been eating in night since growth spurt 3x (11:30, 2:30 and 5:30am). We don't do the paci replacing at night. He just wakes to eat and falls asleep while I hold him upright for ten to digest the food. During the day he goes down after a 2 min rock in the chair with his paci (lately he actually wants none of rocking and I just put him in bed after a little sh and bouncing while walking-he act gets more worked up the longer I hold him, so I just put him down and might soothe for a sec in bed by stroking his forehead, saying sh, putting my cheek next to his, kissing his forehead). He might wimper with the paci in, but never cries. Both my boys have reflux and sleep/slept with the head of the bed elevated with a wedge. Do you keep luke upright for 10-30 at night after you feed him? AJ was terrible at night until I started doing that. I agree when they are overtired it is ok to cheat with whatever works to get them to sleep so you can have a clean slate to try things.
ReplyDeleteEven though I said I'd NEVER do it, I had to use a modified crying it out method - see my post here:
ReplyDeletehttp://eidsonfamilyjourney.blogspot.com/2011/02/update-on-our-sleep-adventures.html
It worked within a day and he is now an awesome sleeper, taking 2 naps a day and sleeping 13 hours at night. If only I could get Addison to do the same thing...maybe in time.
Certain things work for certain babies, and I was really resistant to doing this, but when I got desperate, I had to do it. I had to leave him there crying or I was going to go crazy.
You are more committed than I am to BFing honestly - an elimination diet is a lot of work. I don't think I could do it. I am barely hanging on now with it and may throw in the towel soon:(. Good luck to you and kudos for sticking it out:)!
I would recommend, before you do the total elimination diet, seeking out a pediatric allergist and getting him tested. I kept chasing the idea that "he must be allergic to something" for weeks until we finally had him tested and he wasn't allergic to anything! So you never know. This way you'll know. Dominic just had a skin test done. It wasn't bad at all. And we just tested the main culprits. So that's my first bit of advice.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, I'm seeing more and more that consistency is key with sleep. Whatever you do, be consistent. He's getting older now and is learning what room, bed, place means sleep. If your goal is to get him to sleep in his crib, use it every time. At least always start out there. Put him down sleepy but not sleeping. If he wakes up, go back in and rerock or nurse until sleepy again, and just keep doing that. Eventually he will learn that he can sleep in his crib. If it's really bad, and he won't sleep after many many attempts, then maybe switch to his seat or a swing or whatever works. But persevere! I'm NOT a fan of cry it out, but that doesn't mean that I don't let Dominic fuss or even cry for up to 15 minutes. That's kind of my limit. You have to find what works for you. But be consistent! That was my problem early on with Dominic. I was all over the place and so was he!
Praying for you :) You're doing such a great job! We've ALL been there!
In you last post Becky (I think) asked if babies can have acid reflux and NOT spit up. The answer to her question is YES!!!! My preemie (32 weeker) had AR, but we didn't have a clue until he had a barium swallow test. It was very interesting. Every time my baby would eat, he would reflux - the acid would 'bounce' up and down, but never come up. He was in terrible pain - never eating enough to be full, and then terrible burning on the inside. So sorry to go into so much detail, but if you have a baby that has pain with feedings, it's the most upsetting thing! (Especially when your baby only weighs 5 pounds! at a month old!) And now to your post...I agree with Julie. Tough love - baby style. You have to sleep. You have to teach your baby to sleep. He needs to know that he's going to be ok and he can indeed fall asleep. I know it sucks to hear him cry. But it's like teaching a child anything that they resist learning. No one wants to memorize multiplication facts. It's torture. But after weeks of work, it gets easier. So, slowly sleep train - letting him learn that he will be ok. Put him down full and happy, with soft music, a lovey, and something interesting to look at. You know he's safe in the crib - he won't get hurt. Let him deal with it for a while. And then praise him for a good job. LOL! WHo doesn't enjoy a little cheer and pat on the back. DO a silly dance, sing a little song. :) You can do it and you will have a MUCH happier and healthier little one. AND you will be much better off doing it now, rather than later!
ReplyDeleteLurker alert here:
ReplyDeleteI probably shouldn't be commenting since I'm still in the Infertile camp, but I remember that a friend of mine had a terrible time with her son sleeping until she'd put a t-shirt or something that smelled like her or her DH (obviously not the sweaty gym shirt.... although her DH did that once!) and when he felt like they were still close he could sleep.
Worth a try?
I've got nothing for you on the diet stuff. Know that I'm thinking about you & praying for you - even from the abyss of lurk-dom!
Now that I've had a little sleep I have a couple more comments about food sensitives... I write sensitives as a baby does not have to be allergic to react to something... Once you have ever had blood in the stool that resolved by eliminating a food you are dealing with a totally different world than your average non sensitive child. Maggie may well not be allergic but I am and my body makes antibodies and gives them to her via breastmilk so her body sees the same foods as invaders... This is another reason why allergy testing is not the greatest for a little one... Once they are totally weaned and have had a good amount of time for their body to purge your antibodies then an allergy test will be more accurate on them. Also once they get to the point of blood in their stool their gut is not healthy and it can see all sorts of things as invaders that it won't once the gut has some time to heal.
ReplyDeleteI say follow the poop. As long as you have any amount of mucous (unless he has a stuffy nose right then from a virus) then his gut is not healthy. My friend who had to cut out almost everything saw a pediatric gastroenterologist rather than an allergist and it was the poop they followed. We don't have a children's hospital here and I'm used to dealing with allergies so I just kept note of what I ate and followed the poop cues... It wan't hard for me to see that Maggs didn't do well when I had obvious soy but the corn was a little harder to find. A good allergist will tell you that the test doesn't matter as much as the symptoms.
Now after all that once you get to the healthy poop all the time then they have bad habits and you may well have to pull out the tough love on the sleep. We have with Maggs although I never let her cry for more than 2 minutes. I'll let her fuss and complain for a while but not cry. That's just me as I'm firmly rooted in attachment parenting. Sorry to write a book. Hang in there, I'm praying for you!
How was the weekend? Did Luke sleep any better? I hope so!
ReplyDeleteRegarding Carter, I used the same techniques that another blogger, Julie, did. Carter did not use a pacifier at night (when he was littler, he just wouldn't take them very well)-just at naptimes. We always swaddled and used a "Sleep Sheep" for white noise--then just had to let him cry. It was horrible (the first couple of days, he cried a long time) but he refused to sleep without being held, and I was exhausted! After about a week, he was sleeping MUCH better! We used the same nighttime sleep/breastfeeding routine that Julie used, too. We had to just put him in his crib for naps too, and sometimes he cried and sometimes not. Honestly, for the longest time I would do a lot of "cheater" naps during the days, just so he would sleep without crying (i.e. car rides, stroller rides, bouncy seat, etc.) He sleeps great at night and takes pretty good naps now, so I almost forget those hard times when he was little :) I've heard the trick is to not let the baby get too tired, and then they shouldn't cry too much. Anyways, just thought I would put my "two cents" in :) You'll find what works for Luke. And just remember "this too shall pass". I said some prayers for you at Mass (I know we don't know eachother but I also know it's hard to be a mom sometimes and we can all use all the prayers we can get :)
Ella had a major sleep regression around 3-4 months. It was awful. But she was way overtired and what worked the best was putting her to bed super early (between 5 and 6 PM) and treating night like nighttime and only feeding her in her room. She didn't leave her room after we put her down at night and until 7 am or so the next morning. Then we would put her down for her first nap about 1 to 1.25 hours after getting up. If she took at nap at that time, the rest of the day went a little better and the wake times would lengthen as the day went on. But there were weeks when it felt like all I was doing was putting her down for a nap in her crib. Did you check out the link I sent you? Lots of helpful information there. Good luck!
ReplyDeleteOh, you're not alone! Sarah never napped regularly until 9 months, and didn't sleep through the night until we did sleep training at 18 months. We used The Sleep Lady's Good Night, Sleep Tight. I know she doesn't recommend doing full training before 6 months, but the book does have advice for getting babies ready for sleep training prior to 6 months. I thought it was brilliant.
ReplyDeleteOf course, I'm wondering now if Sarah had issues with something I was eating, too! I hope you get this figured out soon! Lack of sleep is such a killer!
I had major MAJOR issues with my son (also named Luke!). He would never just go to sleep and had terrible night waking. I tried everything. I bought 6 sleep books and tried every method out there. In the end, it just took time. I now realized how much pressure I put on the both of us. It all started straightening out around 8 1/2 months. And it got really really better around 10 months. He is still not the best sleeper, but so much better. I kept thinking it was me and we weren't doing something right, but I realized that I needed to stop pushing something he just wasn't ready for. Some babies just aren't great sleepers. (I let him cry it out for multiple nights and it did not work! Some say "you didn't try long enough". I did and it just doesn't work for some babies.)
ReplyDeleteGood luck! I am praying for you because from one non-sleeper Luke mom to another, I know how hard it is :). You have the right attitude though - it won't last forever :). It would be nice if it happened soon though!
Just wanted to say that my little guy was this way- exactly. He wouldn't sleep...wouldn't nap. If I could get him to sleep bu bouncing him around in my arms, he would wake up as soon as I tried to put him down. Basically from 3 months-8 months we lived like this....not a lot of napping, and we resorted to cosleeping at night, with lots of breastfeeding when he would wake up, to survive.
ReplyDeleteAt 11 months old we decided to sleep train, at this point I could tell he was starting to settle in to some sort of schedule and had the ability to put himself to sleep. Up to this point he was just sporadic, cried all the time, and we were flying by the seat of our pants.
Ultimately, we had to let him cry (we never left his side and would pat and console him, sing to him) but he ended up crying for hours...and it took us over a month to start to see success. I don't think there is any easy answer when you have a baby like ours. At least, I know that my guy was sensitive to being overtired- which just made it impossible to get him to sleep! He was also intense and persistent- crying and crying and not able to soothe himself...basically screaming a lot of the time and fussy during the day because he wouldn't nap.
It is much better now :) Hang in there!
Hi - Just wanted to let you know I'm going through the exact same thing with my 5 month old daughter. I also have a toddler who I nursed for a year so I'm kind of in shock that I'm hitting such a wall with figuring out this reflux/allergy thing. She is on medication for the reflux, I started solids, elevated the crib mattress, etc - but we are a mess! I've also eliminated dairy but I'm honestly not seeing any improvement. If I find something that works, I'll let you know!
ReplyDeleteAngela
I swear by the book "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child." It was my "Bible", if you will, when I had our son. I needed someone to literally walk me through what to do at each step...and that's what this book did.
ReplyDeleteMy husband made fun of me because I was always referring to it, but IT WORKS. It takes some tough night of letting them cry it out, but my son is an excellent sleeper during the day and at night. It makes ALL the difference for Mommy's mental health.
Now that we are expecting Baby #2, I am going to use it again. The best part is that I can at least count on my first child sleeping well for me so that i am hopefully only dealing with the newborn. My suggestion: check out the book! You won't regret it.
this is probably too elementary for you, if you're considering a total elimination diet. But I have a friend who read a book called "Naps," and sold me on this idea that babies of this age only have a 90 minute wakeful period. I find that if I am working ahead of myself and trying to get Ezra to sleep before the 90 minutes is up, it is much easier than if he goes for longer. But that doesn't solve your crazy nights at all.
ReplyDeleteHa! You already know this...but it's US! US!
ReplyDeleteMy kid won't fall/stay asleep without the boob. He has it in his mouth all night long. I'm not exaggerating. I'm seriously being literal.
Swing and bouncy seats? Over those too.
Passys? No thank, Mom!
It will get better and he will sleep on his own one day.